I keep watching bits of these conversations and avoiding commenting because I think it’s unhelpful to comment without genuinely trying to make a connection, so I want to try this time.
Yes, language choices have impact in all kinds of ways. But I think what is at play here more than the manipulation of language choices is the weaponization of narrative and information, itself. If the frame one is operating under is that something like “75 years of colonialism” is hogwash - not just as a language choice but as a concept, and that deeply threatens a narrative one operates under not only as an important story but as personal identity, then one will twist oneself into a thousand pretzel-like shapes to deflect and decry it. The starting point here (in decrying such language) is not truth but deeply established underlying belief.
This is about so much more than language. It is about information. In this and so many conversations, everything being discussed about the unique atrocities of October 7 is completely denied about the Israeli side. What if the issue of “equivalency” is literally the opposite of what this narrative claims?
The irony in mentioning that it has been 5 months, without any acknowledgement that that also equals 5 months of unrelenting atrocities in Gaza, is breathtaking to me. I believe this is due to a genuine disbelief that these things could be true (for instance the sexual violence coming from the IDF - not since 10/7 but for a long, long time) and such a strong belief that the Israelis are the de facto good guys (such that intensive lying and propaganda from the Israeli regime is neither real nor possible).
I think the rabbi is correct in saying “every Jew is beginning to now understand our identity has changed” but I don’t think he understands how varied those changes are if one is to survey all Jews. Many Jews are instead experiencing an evolution that causes them to question everything they were taught about Israel. Many of them are rightly horrified and questioning this kind of automatic identification.
The Mate family (Gabor and children) is a great example (except that they did it decades ago).
Here is a discussion between members of the Mate family that illuminates a very different picture than the one that “every Jew” sees things from the same lens as Rabbi Joseph. https://youtu.be/azxtxKyHntA?si=T9BOTkQ-e7ms0DEn
Thank you for taking the time to reply, Rabbi Joseph. I appreciate your perspective, honor your pain, and respect that I can’t possibly know what it is like to stand in the exact place that you do with the accumulation of all of your life experiences and everything that informs them.
You are correct that we do not have a shared understanding and sometimes those divides cannot be broached through persuasion from either direction. Although the idea of agreeing to disagree is a vital one, it can effectively feel like a slap in the face when the stakes of the disagreements are so high. (I know this is truer for you than for me). I also recognize that while I’m doing the best I know how, it’s more than possible that I’m all wrong. Either way, I am sorry that to you (at least) my angle doesn’t feel very loving.
But I hope that keeping some dialogue and gestures of respect and kindness can at least go part of the way toward the direction of what we all want (peace, love, understanding, all the things), though in our fallen humanity we can never seem to accomplish.
I will also say that your direct “ask” to me reflects this gap in understanding between us: (“Please let me know whether you will stand with me in working for the survival of the unique presence of Jewish life and Judaism”) Specifically, to me this is a vague request that honestly feels manipulative - though I don’t mean to accuse you of any such intent.
To me, there is always a hierarchy of importance when it comes to seeking Justice, righteousness, godliness, etc. Some things are temporary, others are eternal. Some things are transcendent, other things are circumstantial. Some things are particular and others are universal. While group identities are a vital way that humans survive in the world, I do not believe they are paramount and in fact are one of the things that MOST trips us up as humans. This is not to say that I don’t care about the preservation of Judaism. I just don’t believe it is at stake or needs to be, in the way and for the reasons you do.
So what I feel compelled by is not to stand with you according to these particular terms you’ve laid out, which to me don’t seem to take into account the way it intersects with other people (namely the people and their ancestors who were already living in the region). I don’t see how the unique presence of Jewish life and Judaism are dependent on a uniquely Jewish possession of Eretz Israel. And to the extent that exclusive possession is a force of oppression for others (which I believe it is)I just can’t agree that it should be prioritized over actual living, breathing people, which is what I see as the real contest.
I realize you would vehemently disagree with my framing. The best I can do is try to listen to different perspectives, including yours, through the filter of my own mind (which is impossible in this life to shed) and to attempt to discern the truth against the scaffolding of my own mind, some of which has been torn down and reconstructed in my 47 years so far. And until I see God with everything made clear and plain, I hope that process continues (though the tearing down is always painful). I am sorry that I cannot meet you in that place that you ask (though I suspect you knew that). I do believe that those gaps will one day be broached because of the goodness and power and love of the God we both serve.
I will also add that although I am not Jewish myself, the reason I think I have felt such a strong stake in trying to understand this (much much more so than the war in Ukraine, for example) is a felt sense of connection and potential complicity in MY identity as a Christian, with whatever is and has gone sideways in a land that my own faith community reveres in so many ways and for so many reasons. Although I had never worked it out with any detail, having grown up in evangelical culture and having read the Left Behind book series as a young person (which I long since realized was junk) when I hear people say there are more Zionist Christians in America than Zionist Jews, I perk up and feel that in a moment like this I want to get it right.
After listening to more of a Palestinian-sympathetic perspective on everything, I have also done a little bit of reading on those few evangelicals who have taken a position for years that the dominant evangelical theology about the historic land of Israel and modern Israel and eschatology, etc. is both warped and insidious within Christianity. I noted that one of my own Bible professors from 25 years ago - Gary Burg - had much to say on this. I read a book by Hank Hanegraff (whose name I remembered as a very evangelical type and was shocked to find did not have a typical evangelical view on this topic) that I felt made all the sense in the world. For what it’s worth.
When all of us look back at historical events and scratch our heads about “how could this have happened?” we all hope we would have seen through whatever kind of group think led to an outcome that in retrospect seems morally obvious. But that’s probably never how it is in the moment. In the moment there are lies to wade through and deeply constructed stories that work on us psychologically. I think we’re in a moment like that. We need to dig very deep to get to the universal and reliable truths that are somehow hard to find for people in every generation and to not think any of us are somehow impervious to what has always tripped up people and led to war and oppression.
One thing we could potentially all agree on as people of faith is that if it weren’t for the mercy of God we would all be sunk. Thank God for his mercy.
I cannot begin to fully engage your responses because of the painful gap of shared understanding between us. I have read and heard the Mate material before, they are activists from Vancouver Canada where their views about Israel and its destiny are risk free. There are a few such Jews whose high profiles on YouTube seem to convince many non-Jews/Gentiles/Christians that these anti-Zionism anti Israel positions are normative and prophetic examples of Jewish life. They are all entitled to their views but these people are not normative examples, as in the case of Messianic Jews who claim that they can embrace the Christ and Jewish identity simultaneously. Neither example is acceptable within the diverse normative global Jewish community.
You begin your personal statement with an assumption that the current conflict began with Israeli responsibility of the past 75 years, which is such a painful misuse of causal equivalency that I have nothing to say beyond my deep shock. If you want to hold ALL Israelis responsible for everything the Palestinian people are facing, then please explain how the slaughter and desecration of infants is part of that ethics.
There are currently 15.8 million Jews (maybe 17?) in a global population of 8+ billion. Where should 47% of these Jews who live in Israel go? Hamas is a self declared radical Muslim eliminationist terrorist group that came into being in 1988, during the 75 years of Israeli oppression. Hamas does not want and will not negotiate the utopian state that the Voice of Peace Jews offer as their solution. Israel could do everything every Palestinian leader demands and it would be insufficient, they would be forced to leave the land....to where should they flee?
Reading history as the product of ideology is not the same as the critical reading of complex and sometimes unresolveable issues. I do not support the current Israeli gov't and am horrified at the destruction of Gaza, but Hamas, the elected Palestinian organization that has ruled Gaza is at least 50% responsible for the current crisis....they attacked Israel, some call it resistance but it was a unilateral attack. The result of the last 5 months of horror is collective....universal....so given you admire the Mate family, what should Jews do to support those in our families who now live with the trauma of 10/7? That question does not exclude the horror faced by Palestinians...BOTH traumas require public response.
I am afraid that being a Jew today is once again a burden that most others do not want to understand. Worse, is the fear I have watching my adult children facing antisemitism and even worse trying to explain to my grandchildren.....I grew up being a Christ Killer, today I am a colonist murderer and genocide supporter. Once again I face the accusation that will silence my attempts to defend my right to exist.
I ask you sincerely, if you want the survival of the unique presence of Jewish life and Judaism.....which includes living in our homeland. Unique is not superior but singular....never better....but always responsible for the ethical demands of the God we share.
I will not be swayed by Gabor Mate....he survived as an infant, but more than a dozen of my extended family from Hungry perished in the camps....they would have survived with an Israel. I will continue to support the Jewish people and protest the Israeli government.
Thank you for listening and writing...Please let me know whether you will stand with me in working for the survival of the unique presence of Jewish life and Judaism.
On the discussion of the inadequacy of language to describe 10-7, may I suggest a term which has been used to describe the actions of Boka Haram and Isis? “Genocidal terror: terrorist acts by non-state actors with genocidal intent.
LEV Zell = Elie Wiesel
I keep watching bits of these conversations and avoiding commenting because I think it’s unhelpful to comment without genuinely trying to make a connection, so I want to try this time.
Yes, language choices have impact in all kinds of ways. But I think what is at play here more than the manipulation of language choices is the weaponization of narrative and information, itself. If the frame one is operating under is that something like “75 years of colonialism” is hogwash - not just as a language choice but as a concept, and that deeply threatens a narrative one operates under not only as an important story but as personal identity, then one will twist oneself into a thousand pretzel-like shapes to deflect and decry it. The starting point here (in decrying such language) is not truth but deeply established underlying belief.
This is about so much more than language. It is about information. In this and so many conversations, everything being discussed about the unique atrocities of October 7 is completely denied about the Israeli side. What if the issue of “equivalency” is literally the opposite of what this narrative claims?
The irony in mentioning that it has been 5 months, without any acknowledgement that that also equals 5 months of unrelenting atrocities in Gaza, is breathtaking to me. I believe this is due to a genuine disbelief that these things could be true (for instance the sexual violence coming from the IDF - not since 10/7 but for a long, long time) and such a strong belief that the Israelis are the de facto good guys (such that intensive lying and propaganda from the Israeli regime is neither real nor possible).
I think the rabbi is correct in saying “every Jew is beginning to now understand our identity has changed” but I don’t think he understands how varied those changes are if one is to survey all Jews. Many Jews are instead experiencing an evolution that causes them to question everything they were taught about Israel. Many of them are rightly horrified and questioning this kind of automatic identification.
The Mate family (Gabor and children) is a great example (except that they did it decades ago).
Here is a discussion between members of the Mate family that illuminates a very different picture than the one that “every Jew” sees things from the same lens as Rabbi Joseph. https://youtu.be/azxtxKyHntA?si=T9BOTkQ-e7ms0DEn
This is a thoughtful and honest rebuttal— I’ll make sure Joseph addresses it in the future. Thank you!
Thank you for taking the time to reply, Rabbi Joseph. I appreciate your perspective, honor your pain, and respect that I can’t possibly know what it is like to stand in the exact place that you do with the accumulation of all of your life experiences and everything that informs them.
You are correct that we do not have a shared understanding and sometimes those divides cannot be broached through persuasion from either direction. Although the idea of agreeing to disagree is a vital one, it can effectively feel like a slap in the face when the stakes of the disagreements are so high. (I know this is truer for you than for me). I also recognize that while I’m doing the best I know how, it’s more than possible that I’m all wrong. Either way, I am sorry that to you (at least) my angle doesn’t feel very loving.
But I hope that keeping some dialogue and gestures of respect and kindness can at least go part of the way toward the direction of what we all want (peace, love, understanding, all the things), though in our fallen humanity we can never seem to accomplish.
I will also say that your direct “ask” to me reflects this gap in understanding between us: (“Please let me know whether you will stand with me in working for the survival of the unique presence of Jewish life and Judaism”) Specifically, to me this is a vague request that honestly feels manipulative - though I don’t mean to accuse you of any such intent.
To me, there is always a hierarchy of importance when it comes to seeking Justice, righteousness, godliness, etc. Some things are temporary, others are eternal. Some things are transcendent, other things are circumstantial. Some things are particular and others are universal. While group identities are a vital way that humans survive in the world, I do not believe they are paramount and in fact are one of the things that MOST trips us up as humans. This is not to say that I don’t care about the preservation of Judaism. I just don’t believe it is at stake or needs to be, in the way and for the reasons you do.
So what I feel compelled by is not to stand with you according to these particular terms you’ve laid out, which to me don’t seem to take into account the way it intersects with other people (namely the people and their ancestors who were already living in the region). I don’t see how the unique presence of Jewish life and Judaism are dependent on a uniquely Jewish possession of Eretz Israel. And to the extent that exclusive possession is a force of oppression for others (which I believe it is)I just can’t agree that it should be prioritized over actual living, breathing people, which is what I see as the real contest.
I realize you would vehemently disagree with my framing. The best I can do is try to listen to different perspectives, including yours, through the filter of my own mind (which is impossible in this life to shed) and to attempt to discern the truth against the scaffolding of my own mind, some of which has been torn down and reconstructed in my 47 years so far. And until I see God with everything made clear and plain, I hope that process continues (though the tearing down is always painful). I am sorry that I cannot meet you in that place that you ask (though I suspect you knew that). I do believe that those gaps will one day be broached because of the goodness and power and love of the God we both serve.
https://youtu.be/94B7kadhiv4?si=pnT-3cZ__og16A7C
Christina...we need to share a common set of FACTS as you refer.
Pls get past the ideological certainty of the Palestinian cause and check the video presentation of Dara Horn.
The Palestinian peoples are not historically nor textually the original people of this area, that is simply not factually correct.
I too will do my part for justice but not at the expense of the destruction of the Jewish people.
I will also add that although I am not Jewish myself, the reason I think I have felt such a strong stake in trying to understand this (much much more so than the war in Ukraine, for example) is a felt sense of connection and potential complicity in MY identity as a Christian, with whatever is and has gone sideways in a land that my own faith community reveres in so many ways and for so many reasons. Although I had never worked it out with any detail, having grown up in evangelical culture and having read the Left Behind book series as a young person (which I long since realized was junk) when I hear people say there are more Zionist Christians in America than Zionist Jews, I perk up and feel that in a moment like this I want to get it right.
After listening to more of a Palestinian-sympathetic perspective on everything, I have also done a little bit of reading on those few evangelicals who have taken a position for years that the dominant evangelical theology about the historic land of Israel and modern Israel and eschatology, etc. is both warped and insidious within Christianity. I noted that one of my own Bible professors from 25 years ago - Gary Burg - had much to say on this. I read a book by Hank Hanegraff (whose name I remembered as a very evangelical type and was shocked to find did not have a typical evangelical view on this topic) that I felt made all the sense in the world. For what it’s worth.
When all of us look back at historical events and scratch our heads about “how could this have happened?” we all hope we would have seen through whatever kind of group think led to an outcome that in retrospect seems morally obvious. But that’s probably never how it is in the moment. In the moment there are lies to wade through and deeply constructed stories that work on us psychologically. I think we’re in a moment like that. We need to dig very deep to get to the universal and reliable truths that are somehow hard to find for people in every generation and to not think any of us are somehow impervious to what has always tripped up people and led to war and oppression.
One thing we could potentially all agree on as people of faith is that if it weren’t for the mercy of God we would all be sunk. Thank God for his mercy.
Christina
I cannot begin to fully engage your responses because of the painful gap of shared understanding between us. I have read and heard the Mate material before, they are activists from Vancouver Canada where their views about Israel and its destiny are risk free. There are a few such Jews whose high profiles on YouTube seem to convince many non-Jews/Gentiles/Christians that these anti-Zionism anti Israel positions are normative and prophetic examples of Jewish life. They are all entitled to their views but these people are not normative examples, as in the case of Messianic Jews who claim that they can embrace the Christ and Jewish identity simultaneously. Neither example is acceptable within the diverse normative global Jewish community.
You begin your personal statement with an assumption that the current conflict began with Israeli responsibility of the past 75 years, which is such a painful misuse of causal equivalency that I have nothing to say beyond my deep shock. If you want to hold ALL Israelis responsible for everything the Palestinian people are facing, then please explain how the slaughter and desecration of infants is part of that ethics.
There are currently 15.8 million Jews (maybe 17?) in a global population of 8+ billion. Where should 47% of these Jews who live in Israel go? Hamas is a self declared radical Muslim eliminationist terrorist group that came into being in 1988, during the 75 years of Israeli oppression. Hamas does not want and will not negotiate the utopian state that the Voice of Peace Jews offer as their solution. Israel could do everything every Palestinian leader demands and it would be insufficient, they would be forced to leave the land....to where should they flee?
Reading history as the product of ideology is not the same as the critical reading of complex and sometimes unresolveable issues. I do not support the current Israeli gov't and am horrified at the destruction of Gaza, but Hamas, the elected Palestinian organization that has ruled Gaza is at least 50% responsible for the current crisis....they attacked Israel, some call it resistance but it was a unilateral attack. The result of the last 5 months of horror is collective....universal....so given you admire the Mate family, what should Jews do to support those in our families who now live with the trauma of 10/7? That question does not exclude the horror faced by Palestinians...BOTH traumas require public response.
I am afraid that being a Jew today is once again a burden that most others do not want to understand. Worse, is the fear I have watching my adult children facing antisemitism and even worse trying to explain to my grandchildren.....I grew up being a Christ Killer, today I am a colonist murderer and genocide supporter. Once again I face the accusation that will silence my attempts to defend my right to exist.
I ask you sincerely, if you want the survival of the unique presence of Jewish life and Judaism.....which includes living in our homeland. Unique is not superior but singular....never better....but always responsible for the ethical demands of the God we share.
I will not be swayed by Gabor Mate....he survived as an infant, but more than a dozen of my extended family from Hungry perished in the camps....they would have survived with an Israel. I will continue to support the Jewish people and protest the Israeli government.
Thank you for listening and writing...Please let me know whether you will stand with me in working for the survival of the unique presence of Jewish life and Judaism.
Joseph A. Edelheit
Outstanding conversation once again.
On the discussion of the inadequacy of language to describe 10-7, may I suggest a term which has been used to describe the actions of Boka Haram and Isis? “Genocidal terror: terrorist acts by non-state actors with genocidal intent.
Thanks to you both. I’m grateful for your work.