I still think this is too much for me to overlook. I cannot see how sinners in the hands of an angry God would not induce fear as the primary emotion. I think it’s a stretch that boggles the imagination to say that sermon should inspire us to behold the glory of God.
Apart from this, his participation in slavery speaks to a man that has more to answer for than a single rough sermon. I’ll admit this is only my perspective, but I find this deeply troubling, whether or not he articulated beauty well.
Thanks Kemp. I agree in part. That Gregory of Nyssa and other fathers condemned slavery means we can’t just say, “Well, he was a man of his times.” At the same time, it’s not clear he had such access to the Fathers. I’m enough of a Lutheran, however, to be suspicious of any suggestion that we can only trust the gospel preaching of someone who isn’t ensnared in sin.
I also think a charitable look at JE’s bio would suggest he would’ve ended up in a different place had he lived longer. He was already on that trajectory.
You’re right, he may have eventually changed his view. I’m not as familiar with his life as you are. I know there is a tendency to judge historical figures harshly and without nuance regarding their time and place. With that being said, I think Benjamin Lay provides a striking contrast as a contemporary.
It’s not so much that I’m looking at him and seeing a few sins and condemning him. It’s more that the theological view of total depravity (among other Calvinist beliefs) actually functioned in that time and place to further entrench the institution of slavery. Edwards may have a beautiful view of God, but his view of people was troubling at best. I see total depravity, eternal conscious torment, and general cruelty towards humans as all being linked.
Yes! I wrote my English thesis in undergrad specifically on this topic. I have a feeling even Edwards might have been a bit uncomfortable with "Sinners," almost as though it were an experimental play at the voice of the revival era (as all of us play with different preaching voices from time to time). Edwards' thoughtfulness about the complex relationship of what appears to be "effective" from a human standpoint (ie. fear, fire and brimstone preaching) and what is fruitful in the Spirit is wisdom that continues to be relevant for the church.
THANK you! Of course, Edwards isn’t who they told us he was. Just like the people he led were not who they tell us they were. And the Gospel life they lived was so different from the warped distortion they want us to “reject” today.
Fake news is a real thing. But as you have taught so well Jesus also speaks and for every Jonathan Edwards “they” erase the Holy Spirit quickens a Hans Urs von Balthasar to speak again of truth and beauty emanating from a Triune God.
I think I have more in common with a buddhist monk who dedicates their life to compassion and service than I have with Jonathan Edwards. Edwards wrote that multitudes felt urged to end their lives after hearing his preaching and two did, including his uncle Joseph Hawley who slit his own throat after feeling "religious despair". The whole "awakening" seemed fear based. And after a few years when the emotional frenzy died down, his parishioners began engaging in "licentiousness". He was removed from his own church because he wouldnt let people take communion until they behaved. Years later he wrote a bitter letter to one of his ousters while he was working with native americans, you can read about it in the link below. I've heard Edwards has great metaphysics similar to Gregory of Nyssa. But Im not sure his legacy is worth hyping up. https://dmarlin.com/pastprologue/blog/great-awakening-hawley-family-northampton-ma/
I still think this is too much for me to overlook. I cannot see how sinners in the hands of an angry God would not induce fear as the primary emotion. I think it’s a stretch that boggles the imagination to say that sermon should inspire us to behold the glory of God.
Apart from this, his participation in slavery speaks to a man that has more to answer for than a single rough sermon. I’ll admit this is only my perspective, but I find this deeply troubling, whether or not he articulated beauty well.
Thanks Kemp. I agree in part. That Gregory of Nyssa and other fathers condemned slavery means we can’t just say, “Well, he was a man of his times.” At the same time, it’s not clear he had such access to the Fathers. I’m enough of a Lutheran, however, to be suspicious of any suggestion that we can only trust the gospel preaching of someone who isn’t ensnared in sin.
I also think a charitable look at JE’s bio would suggest he would’ve ended up in a different place had he lived longer. He was already on that trajectory.
You’re right, he may have eventually changed his view. I’m not as familiar with his life as you are. I know there is a tendency to judge historical figures harshly and without nuance regarding their time and place. With that being said, I think Benjamin Lay provides a striking contrast as a contemporary.
It’s not so much that I’m looking at him and seeing a few sins and condemning him. It’s more that the theological view of total depravity (among other Calvinist beliefs) actually functioned in that time and place to further entrench the institution of slavery. Edwards may have a beautiful view of God, but his view of people was troubling at best. I see total depravity, eternal conscious torment, and general cruelty towards humans as all being linked.
I will have to hunt down a copy of that book! This is very encouraging.
Yes! I wrote my English thesis in undergrad specifically on this topic. I have a feeling even Edwards might have been a bit uncomfortable with "Sinners," almost as though it were an experimental play at the voice of the revival era (as all of us play with different preaching voices from time to time). Edwards' thoughtfulness about the complex relationship of what appears to be "effective" from a human standpoint (ie. fear, fire and brimstone preaching) and what is fruitful in the Spirit is wisdom that continues to be relevant for the church.
THANK you! Of course, Edwards isn’t who they told us he was. Just like the people he led were not who they tell us they were. And the Gospel life they lived was so different from the warped distortion they want us to “reject” today.
Fake news is a real thing. But as you have taught so well Jesus also speaks and for every Jonathan Edwards “they” erase the Holy Spirit quickens a Hans Urs von Balthasar to speak again of truth and beauty emanating from a Triune God.
Thank you!
I think I have more in common with a buddhist monk who dedicates their life to compassion and service than I have with Jonathan Edwards. Edwards wrote that multitudes felt urged to end their lives after hearing his preaching and two did, including his uncle Joseph Hawley who slit his own throat after feeling "religious despair". The whole "awakening" seemed fear based. And after a few years when the emotional frenzy died down, his parishioners began engaging in "licentiousness". He was removed from his own church because he wouldnt let people take communion until they behaved. Years later he wrote a bitter letter to one of his ousters while he was working with native americans, you can read about it in the link below. I've heard Edwards has great metaphysics similar to Gregory of Nyssa. But Im not sure his legacy is worth hyping up. https://dmarlin.com/pastprologue/blog/great-awakening-hawley-family-northampton-ma/